Author, journalist and podcaster Elizabeth Day is not afraid to speak out on failure. After starting her podcast ‘How to Fail’ and writing a book exploring what she has learnt from her guests – as well as throughout her own life – she has in fact disrupted the narrative around failure completely, suggesting it should be embraced more positively as a learning experience that can shape us. We caught up with Elizabeth about growing up, careers and relationships in one of the most refreshing and honest conversations we’ve had to date.

So what if you can learn from failure? What if I can open up these kinds of conversations and share them with a wider audience? Being able to be vulnerable is a source of great connection – that was the kernel of the idea.

The entire premise of the podcast is that failure can teach you something if you choose to let it. Failure is a crucial part of learning how to be human and how to evolve.

The first couple of seasons I relied on friends and contacts I had made through work. I’m now in a more fortunate position where people approach me but I’m guided by instinct – I have a sense as to whether it’ll be a good episode.

The one thing that I would say is non-negotiable is that they have to have a story to tell and the narrative needs to feel important. I want to include a range of diverse voices in terms of ethnicity, age, gender, race, class and background – I think I’ve got better at that with time.

Mo Gawdat is probably my favourite guest of all time – he is so wise and full of extraordinary insight. He developed an algorithm for happiness and spent 12 years researching this concept. He brought together his scientific background with research surrounding religion and philosophy, to come up with a premise that if your perception of life is less than or equal to your expectation, you can be happy. The lesson is don’t set expectations that are unrealistic because you could make yourself feel like a failure. And even after experiencing personal tragedy when his son unexpectedly died at 21, he manages to be such a joyful and calming presence.

Michael Jordan and/or Scottie Pippen – especially after watching The Last Dance on Netflix. Michael Jordan has made so many influential comments about failure throughout his life. Michelle Obama would be a dream too.

From my experiences of trying (and failing) to have a baby. I knew this chapter was the one I desperately wanted to include. Personally, I’d never found much literature covering this before and in the course of writing, I realised how much I’d learnt along the way. It felt important to use my platform to share this with other women.

This chapter was the most cathartic and emotional to write, detailing my journey of unsuccessful IVF rounds, a miscarriage at 3 months, freezing my eggs and since the book’s publication, I’ve experienced two more miscarriages and other procedures. Trying to have a baby has been a huge, ongoing part of my life.

Up until that point, I had mistakenly thought that if I put in enough work and applied myself, I would be rewarded in the ways I most desired. I think it stems from being taught at school that if you work hard, you’ll get the right results. Yet when you’re an adult, it doesn’t work like that – especially when it comes to biology. The biggest lesson has been that some things will be so painful and feel like a failure, yet we can also learn to be at peace with them. Being unable to conceive has caused me great sadness but it has also shaped me in many ways and provided me with more empathy.

Life is unpredictable and it shouldn’t go as expected – that would be boring. Whenever something in my life hasn’t gone according to plan, it has forced me to question the plan itself and I’ve often discovered it was either dysfunctional or constructed in the vacuum of a future that doesn’t exist yet. If you choose to, you can gain so much more wisdom and insight when life is unpredictable.

I can only speak from my perspective but I would say so. I would tell my younger self that when you are told “as you get older and wiser, it’s a great liberation and you’ll care less what others think” that this isn’t just an easy line. It’s actually true. I would also say you are being sold a lie by society that age will diminish you as a woman, because age does in fact empower you.

I’m most proud of having realised that it is never too late to change your life. I made some bold decisions in my mid-thirties that a lot of people questioned but there was an instinctive part of me that knew I had to make a change. I ended my marriage, I moved to LA and I left my job at a national newspaper to go freelance.

After experiencing all of this, I could finally be the truest version of myself in all areas of my life – both professionally and personally.

“Twenty years of joy and support and friendship, that’s a success. Twenty years of anything with another person is a success. If a band stays together twenty years, it’s a miracle. If a comedy duo stays together twenty years, they’re a triumph. Is this night a failure because it will end in an hour? Is the sun a failure because it’s going to end in a billion years? No, it’s the fucking sun.” – Andrew Sean Greer

What did this quote mean to you and how did it make you see the end of your marriage in a new light?

We’ve been taught to think that relationships are failures if they end because of the romantic narratives of incredible highs and devastating lows. However, what if a relationship is something that is sent to you, to teach you something you need to learn? Greer’s quote and my own experiences helped me to realise that once you have learnt all you can, or rather outgrown each other, you can still go your separate ways with great respect for one another. This helped me to take the toxicity out of my divorce.

I know that I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t experienced marriage or a marriage ending – and I don’t regret it for that reason.

The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett and I’ve been re- discovering classics such as Where Angels Fear to Tread by E.M. Forster and They Were Sisters by Dorothy Whipple. I’d highly recommend them all.

You Must Remember This which is hosted by a film historian exploring the first 100 years of Hollywood. It is fascinating and compelling.

My top tip is to get up and start the day with a form of exercise – even if that is just a walk. Also although this is a difficult time, I would say the benefit of working from home is being able to design your day how you want to and having more flexible freedom. Instead of thinking ‘I have to’ try and think ‘I get to.’